Antonis Samaras: «Populism is a disease that leads to disasters»

-You have been criticized in the leftist media because you were the “troika man¨. But what else could you have done while in the government?

-We were speeding up fiscal consolidation and reforms. We accomplished the fastest deficit cutting ever, by more than 7 GDP percentage points in 2.5 years! We have implemented the most competitiveness-enhancing reforms ever attempted in Greece for more than fifty years. We did all these, not because the “Troika” asked us, but because they should have happened in Greece long ago. The truth is that SYRIZA does not believe in fiscal consolidation, in competitiveness enhancing or in reforms. And the whole truth is that in our days we resisted some demands by the Troika, much more than SYRIZA ever did. As a matter of fact, on a number of occasions we implemented tax-cuts against the will of the Troika. And we were able to do so, because we were exceeding our targets. While in the last nine months, the SYRIZA government had to impose harsh measures, because it completely lost control on the fiscal targets... So SYRIZA weakened the position of Greece and was forced to concessions we avoided, we resisted or we were never asked to make...

Do you think that if the “troika” would have given more time to Greece, Greece wouldn´t have needed a third bailout?

-My government never asked for more money, or for more time. We just stressed the fact that for reforms to succeed all the way, they should somehow be adopted to the political cycle. After doing so much for 2.5 years, we couldn’t be forced to do more, just as we were approaching the prospect of snap elections. In any case, we cannot change what has already happened. We should rather concentrate on what will happen from now on...

When you left the Government, Greece´s economy started to grow, now recession is back because of the political instability. Do you see confidence returning at some point?

-I hope it returns. But this can hardly happen when populists are still running the country...

What´s your opinion about prime minister Alexis Tsipras?

- I believe Tsipras has destroyed the positive prospects for Greece that my government had created in the past 2,5 years:

--We were getting out of the fiscal crisis and he got us back in...

--Our economy was already in recovery, after 6 painful years of recession and he got us back in more recession...

--According to the IMF, our debt was getting sustainable and he undermined its sustainability...

--We were getting out in the markets for regular borrowing like a “normal” country and he got us back in a new tight Program.

In short, during our days, Greece was recuperating from the worst crisis in decades; and he got us back in “intensive care” within months of ill-advised and irresponsible policies.

Of course, I am greatly disappointed with him, with the populism he represents, with all the outrageous promises he gave to attain power and all the lies on which he relies to stay in power.

But we are a democratic country. And we deal with our opponents in a democratic way.

Did you ever think that you were going to see bank suspension in Greece? How would you have handled things differently?

-In our days the health of the banking sector was steadily improving, private deposits were rising, our banks had passed all the required “stress tests” and were fully capitalized by last November. The prospects of SYRIZA coming to power created a fly of deposits out of our banks. During Tsipras first months this outflow of deposits steadily increased.

Back in 2012, we have managed to survive a big haircut in public debt – the PSI– that hurt the assets of our banks, without having to resort to any capital controls then. And five months of SYRIZA government were enough to bring about what we had successfully avoided until then.

During Tsipras’ first seven months he didn´t actually carry out his important campaign promises. Why will now be different?

-Exactly! His perceptions have changed somewhat. He has realized that “grexit” is a totally unacceptable prospect for Greece. But he doesn’t have a clue of how to avoid it. He still relies on left-wing policies that have failed all over the world long ago: Heavy taxation and a big state based on political favoritism and clientalism. When an outspoken populist tries to embrace reality, most probably he will end up with a very rough landing. The problem is that Greece does not deserve that...

Do you think the government, with a coalition with the nationalists, will last at least 4 years? Why have the leftist voters accepted this coalition with so many vital differences?

-No, I don’t think they will last that long. The voters have started abandoning him. He has already lost 320 thousand voters compared to eight months ago! What still binds the coalition parties together, is not political convictions, but a thirst to rule and control. And this can hardly keep any government together for long...

Do you think that the EU and its leaders have abandoned countries of the eurozone crisis as Italy, Greece, and Portugal? Did you count on a bigger political and economic support from Europe? Did you feel personally let down?

-Well, I will give you a more general answer: I believe that our Union must be supportive with governments with a proven fiscal and reform record. When we give the impression – even if this is just a superficial impression – that we are “accommodating” the populists, while “pulling the carpet” under the feet of reformist governments, this might send the wrong message.

How do you judge the EU´s management of the refugee crisis?

-We should distinguish between “refugees” on the one hand and “illegal immigrants” on the other. The refugees come from “failed states” or “war zones”, they are asylum-seekers and should be protected all the way. And our Union should share the cost. Thus for refugees we have the policy of “relocation”. No matter where they enter our Union from, they should be relocated across national borders. On the other hand, we have the “illegal immigrants”: They are not eligible for asylum and they should be repatriated. So we have “relocation” for refugees and “repatriation” for illegal immigrants. Both of these major policies should be conducted by our Union and on a Union level. And our Union is just learning now how to face such crises, which have humanitarian dimensions and present formidable social challenges.

Do you feel the EU has given Greece enough help? Where are the European values such as the solidarity in this humanitarian crisis?

-Greece has 11 million people; it has about 1.4 million unemployed; and it has already received more than 1.3 million illegal immigrants over the recent years. On top of those, Greece has received over 300 hundred thousand refugees and illegal immigrants in just the last six months!

They are coming in “waves”, they are coming through the rough seas, we are rescuing hundreds of lives every day, we are being as compassionate and as humane as anybody can, but we are way beyond our capacity to deal with a problem of such proportions.

There are a lot of things to do, to discourage the trafficking and chase away the traffickers, but one thing is for sure: Greece cannot face this problem alone. We need to have a coherent and effective European policy. This is a problem way above any individual member state...

If the Golden Dawn Party has doubled its votes in Lesbos and Kos, due to the refugee crisis, could a similar trend spread with the crisis across Greece?

-As a matter of fact, in the last elections GD lost some voters compared to last January, and even then it lost many more voters compared to the June 2012 general elections. So GD is not on the rise. It is losing ground all over Greece...

But there is no question that, if the illegal immigrant-refugee crisis, goes uncontrolled, it will eventually harm social cohesion in many ways. Some more nasty than others, but all very painful...

Do you see the rise of parties across Europe, like Podemos, offering easy solutions as a threat to the continent?

-Populism is a “disease”. The “easy solutions” it promises always lead to ravaging disasters, of unprecedented proportions, across borders and with lasting effects: polarizing societies, paralyzing economies and poisoning democracies.

Yes, this is a major threat. And we have to fight its lies with the Truth, its irresponsible policies with bold reforms and its dividing messages with unity, perseverance and decisiveness. Populism is a “disease”, but still a “curable” one...

Is there life after being a prime minister?

-Sure there is! As a matter of fact, you can enjoy a normal personal life, your family and your friends much better. And there are many ways to serve your country, other than being on the top office. So I am still heavily involved in the political affairs of my country...

Do you think history and the media have been fair with you?

-No, the media were not “fair” with us. And they are tacitly recognizing it now. As for History, it is too soon to tell. Besides, History judges someone after he is gone. And I am still here...